HC Objektiv ist eine modifizierte Objektiv von Andy.
Ca 25-30% Lichtverlust, anderseits ca 5000:1 nativ on/off Kontrast
Ok. Kein Wunder, dass ich bei Christie nichts finde 
Gibts da einen Link dazu oder muss man Andy direkt anschreiben?
(Gebrauchte) Profi-Beamer vs. High End Consumergeräte: Vor- und Nachteile, Empfehlungen, Austausch
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Ok. Kein Wunder, dass ich bei Christie nichts finde
Gibts da einen Link dazu oder muss man Andy direkt anschreiben?Hallo,
ja du kannst mich direkt anschreiben.
Wir sind dabei das Ganze auch mal (nachzulesen) zu gestalten. Ergo mit Datenblättern etc. Das wird aber noch eine Weile dauern, weil erst die sinnvollen" Varianten fest stehen müssen. Nicht bei allen Objektiven macht es Sinn von der Effektivität insofern.
Oder nur ein oder zwei bestimmte Throw ratio Lösungen bei dem Objektiv Typ "X" sind sinnvoll, der Rest dann wieder nicht ...usw usw.
Viele gute Dinge brauchen auch manchmal mehr Zeit.
ANDY
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HC Objektiv ist eine modifizierte Objektiv von Andy.
Ca 25-30% Lichtverlust, anderseits ca 5000:1 nativ on/off Kontrast
Aber nicht zu verwechseln mit den HC Objektiven für den Griffyn oder den M4K - die gibt es direkt von Christie (zu erkennen am HC/UHC im Namen).
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Alles anzeigen
Battle of the titans ...
HKV opened several threads this week with Barco Freya, Sony GTZ380 Comparison, then Barco Freya, Barco Bragi CS, (Sony VW790) ...
yesterday I felt like it too, and since I also had free time in the afternoon, I took the Cineo82 with me to the cinema. Unfortunately since Christie's arrival, she waited a moment in her original box to reappear.
This week I built a mobile projector stand at the company that made it a lot easier to place the PD.
Briefly adjust, zoom, focus and the 315 cm wide 0.7 Gain woven screen is already illuminated. Quick calibration, gamma 2.4, dci p3 and the "event" could begin. In madvr I switched the settings of 3dlut back to the dci p3 calibration. So the "giants" started the fight with an equal chance
... almost the same, because I set a constant 90 nit for the DTM. I thought this was a happy medium between projectors.
A quick exam in HCFR followed.
Cineo82
22.3 fl brightness (with Barco it is the maximum value that can be achieved after tuning)
8100: 1 on / off with dynamic iris (with contrast tuning)
DCI P3 coverage 88.9%
Christie HD10K
30 fl (it is the right brightness for me according to my experience)
2200: 1 native on / off
DCI P3 coverage 94%
I've looked at a few scenes. Once with Christ, then with projection design.
I have to say, both make a very good picture, both presented super bright colors, you can live with both of them. However, I wanted to make a decision and that's part of it today ... I had previously planned to set up the Barco again after a few weeks of Christie use, so that I could make an objective decision, because in the end only one could remain ... but they lie two devices close together. I've weighed the positives and negatives. It was not an easy decision because, as I said, both machines project an almost perfect and very lovable image.
Technically, both are 3-chip DLPs that are built on the large DLP chip. Both are 2-lamp, more industrial. Both lenses are among the best. Christie has the large DCI lens while Barco has a # 1 grade lens, of which only the top 5% get the Barco title. (Info from my Barco dealer)
Cineo82
Quiet. That means, she was even quieter in the room than Christie outside ...
No visible pixels or grids at 1: 1 ... Christie's lens is so sharp and the image is so bright that I sometimes see the grille in a bright scene when my chair is not tilted back.
With a dynamic aperture, the black level is very brutal. (measured at 0.0027 fL) DLP is really very good. Occurs only for details where the ADL is very low.
Eg several scenes from Venom
The brightness is very good (approx. 22 fL, but the more the better ...
The DCI P3 color space is also very impressive. This of course requires a good HTPC and a well configured MadVR.
Exercise is also very good.
Christie hd10k
There are cooling noises, but they are absolutely not annoying because the Christie is sitting outside in the technical room.
Very sharp optics. That a good source material (eg Lucy, Passengers, Anna) is a blessing, if the mastering of the film is weaker, then a curse, because it mercilessly reveals the mistakes.
The black level is not as good, but this is only problematic as long as you have to project completely dark. My friend was also there at the beginning, his opinion: optically Christie's black value was better than Barco's native black without iris.
I measured it and he was right.
It doesn't matter whether it's Passenger's space walk or Jennifer's black clothes, but we can also record Lucy's scenes here (eg when her mother calls the hospital or just the end of the film ...) because of the high in-picture contrast , the black seems very deep ... and it sells Well. It may only be a visual disappointment ... but it feels very good.
The DCI P3 color space also benefits from the high brightness. In my opinion, the higher the brightness, the more vivid the colors (color brilliance) and the more meaningful the DCI P3 becomes. At 12-14 fl brightness is unnecessary in my opinion.
The movement is just as good as with the barco.
There is no such thing as a rainbow, this is a positive feature of 3-chip technology.
I wrote that there was no "dethronement" ...
Why did I choose Christie despite some of her negatives?
- Higher brightness
- More accurate color reproduction
- Sharper optics
- Almost perfect convergence
- Software (that was also important to me because of the placement)
- More homogeneous picture
Nonetheless, Cineo is just as lovable and still represents a very high standard. Today it is about 10 years old technology.
A bit about the prices .. it also shows that you used to be the king category ..
Cineo82: opened it at € 70,000. Without a lens.
The Christie HD10K cost 36,000 euros even without a lens.
Christie has a home theater version that differs from the HD10K only in its name and house .. (in my opinion) it cost 74,000 ... true 10 years ago.
It was the Cineversum Force Two
What is clear is that I could still get a lot out of Christie with an HC lens.
Lens tuning is unfortunately not cheap, but at the moment I'm supposed to be investing a lot in horticulture ... J
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Thank you very much for sharing this information. Do you by any chance know how this Barco and Christie compare to these models?
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Barco-F82_1080p.htm . And is this the same as the cineo 82?
https://www.projectorcentral.c…and_Cinema_SUPERLUMIS.htm
https://business.panasonic.de/visuelle-systeme/pt-rq13
Also, what is the difference after the lens mods between the Christie HD10K-M and HD6K-M? From the factory I assume one is 10,000 lumen, one is 6,000 lumen, but what is the end result for each with the high contrast lenses? Can you squeeze more contrast out of the 10K than the 6K?
Finally, I am wondering how many pixels, or fractions of pixels, the Christie was misconverged in the center, and in the corners, and how many pixels or fractions of pixels for the Barco cineo82 as well?
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Hallo,
F82 vs Cineo82
wenn die Informationen gut sind, dann PD (Barco) die Cineo82 speziell für Heimkinoverwendung entwickelt. F82 für Veranstaltungen
Preislich war Cineo82 doppelt so viel als die F82 Variante. Cineo 82 ist gleich wie Barco Avielo Helios
Zu Kontrastthema... je mehr Helligkeit hast desto bessere Kontrastverhältniss kannst erreichen (mit einen idealen Blende (richtige Blende, richtige platzierung) leider bin ich nicht expert, vielleicht jemand kann besser beantworten.
Vergleich mit Supelumis, oder Pana... keine Ahnung leider. Gefühlsmässig der Panasonic sicher besser. Laserlichtquelle, dynamische Iris...
Superlumis ist eine gute Frage. Helligkeit ok, meiner Meinung nach Christie und Panasonic sollte besser sein (bei grösseren Leinwandgrösse) wegen bessere Objktiv.
Konvergenz: in der Mitte beide Geräte perfekt.
In den Ecken war Christie besser.
Ca 1/2 Pixel Fehler bei Christie (oder noch weniger)
ca 1 Pixel bei PD
ist bei 315 cm Breite
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Also, what is the difference after the lens mods between the Christie HD10K-M and HD6K-M? From the factory I assume one is 10,000 lumen, one is 6,000 lumen, but what is the end result for each with the high contrast lenses? Can you squeeze more contrast out of the 10K than the 6K?
Hello,
well you have more light reserve for a contrast tuning on the HD10 KM.
You lose about 50% light through the tuning and can double the native contrast.
But this depends on which lens you use. The more into the telephoto zoom range, the more contrast you get.
And the more wide-angle, the less contrast in percentage.
ANDY
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Hallo,
F82 vs Cineo82
wenn die Informationen gut sind, dann PD (Barco) die Cineo82 speziell für Heimkinoverwendung entwickelt. F82 für Veranstaltungen
Preislich war Cineo82 doppelt so viel als die F82 Variante. Cineo 82 ist gleich wie Barco Avielo Helios
Zu Kontrastthema... je mehr Helligkeit hast desto bessere Kontrastverhältniss kannst erreichen (mit einen idealen Blende (richtige Blende, richtige platzierung) leider bin ich nicht expert, vielleicht jemand kann besser beantworten.
Vergleich mit Supelumis, oder Pana... keine Ahnung leider. Gefühlsmässig der Panasonic sicher besser. Laserlichtquelle, dynamische Iris...
Superlumis ist eine gute Frage. Helligkeit ok, meiner Meinung nach Christie und Panasonic sollte besser sein (bei grösseren Leinwandgrösse) wegen bessere Objktiv.
Konvergenz: in der Mitte beide Geräte perfekt.
In den Ecken war Christie besser.
Ca 1/2 Pixel Fehler bei Christie (oder noch weniger)
ca 1 Pixel bei PD
ist bei 315 cm Breite
Thanks a lot. Everything translated in a way I could understand except the part about the Panasonic. Google translate is saying that "emotionally" it is better because of laser lightsource and dynamic iris. I wasn't sure what the German word for "emotionally" is meaning but it's probably a little different than "emotionally." Also, don't Christie's also have dynamic contrast? Or not this model?
That is great that convergence is perfect in the center. That is more important than the sides. When you say 1 pixel off on the sides of one model, do you mean 1 pixel of misconvergence and chromatic aberration total, or 1 pixel of misconvergence plus also an unspecified amount of chromatic aberration? Because I have seen a projector where the clear pixel was misconverged half a pixel but then there was a less defined shade of the same color that added another 1 pixel, but you couldnt make out the pixels clearly, and the shade was a little lighter, so I concluded it was chromatic aberration. Half a pixel of misconvergence, which you can see more defined pixel structure, and 1 pixel of chromatic aberration. Do yours have both or just misconvergence? How much of each?
Also I ask for academic purposes, to learn going forward. If it was 0.5 pixels off across the entire screen, not just the center, would this affect the sharpness or picture quality at all from normal viewing distances? Or would it look less sharp up close than a perfectly converged version of the projector, or a 1-chip equivalent of the same projector, but from viewing distance, it would look 100% the same? In other words, a total non-issue? What about 1 pixel off across the entire screen?
You know how there are those viewing charts that say, "For this viewing distance and screen size, 4K resolution matters compared to 1080p. But from this viewing distance and screen size, it takes up this it doesn't"? I wonder if there is anything similar for convergence? "For this screen size and viewing distance, 1 pixel of misconvergence is noticeable. But from this size/distance, it is not." Etc.
Alles anzeigenHello,
well you have more light reserve for a contrast tuning on the HD10 KM.
You lose about 50% light through the tuning and can double the native contrast.
But this depends on which lens you use. The more into the telephoto zoom range, the more contrast you get.
And the more wide-angle, the less contrast in percentage.
ANDY
Thank you very much. Is there any way to know what is involved with this? I am in the U.S. and I believe I have seen used HD6 or HD10's for sale, probably usually without the lenses. I don't remember the price, but the question is, say you get one of these without the lens, then what other steps are necessary to get a high contrast lens like you're talking about? Are they already available or do you have to modify it yourself? Google translate is translating what people are saying about it as "tuning" the lens, or "lens tuning." I have no idea how to modify a lens myself, if that's what it means.
Also, if you know of any models besides certain Lumis models (or the laser version which I also already know about) in their names like the HD6 or HD10, but that also have frame interpolation from 23/24fps to 47/48fps, I've been wondering if there are any like that that people don't know about.
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Thank you very much. Is there any way to know what is involved with this? I am in the U.S. and I believe I have seen used HD6 or HD10's for sale, probably usually without the lenses. I don't remember the price, but the question is, say you get one of these without the lens, then what other steps are necessary to get a high contrast lens like you're talking about? Are they already available or do you have to modify it yourself? Google translate is translating what people are saying about it as "tuning" the lens, or "lens tuning." I have no idea how to modify a lens myself, if that's what it means.
Also, if you know of any models besides certain Lumis models (or the laser version which I also already know about) in their names like the HD6 or HD10, but that also have frame interpolation from 23/24fps to 47/48fps, I've been wondering if there are any like that that people don't know about.
Hello,
Well, I can modify the original lenses so that more contrast results in the bottom line.
So it is a mod.
And thermally there are also no problems then in the lens.
And depending on the lens, slightly different contrast values result.
Therefore, whether that then Christie models HD6 or 10 or even the Mirage series, does not matter.
Keyword frame interpolation. :
Only certain SIM 2 projectors are equipped with this or also the modified newer devices from Lasertec (ILEP).
In the professional sector, only Panasonic currently does this.
In general, however, some devices can upsample the normal 24 Hz to 48, which also ensures somewhat better movements.
Therefore there are almost no professional projectors with this frame interpolation (only Sony GTZ 380 e.g.).
ANDY
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Google translate is saying that "emotionally" it is better because of laser lightsource and dynamic iris. I wasn't sure what the German word for "emotionally" is meaning but it's probably a little different than "emotionally."
Google translated correct but the german word "gefühlsmäßig" was used wrong in this case. Better would have been "gefühlt" what just means "it seems ( to be better)" or "it feels (to be better)" .
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Wegen Kritik gelöscht.
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Beim Hamburg Bild seh ich aus der Erinnerung heraus mehr Details.
Konvergenz ist sehr gut (nachdem ich Rot um einen Px verschoben hab), CA ebenfalls, glaub besser als beim X7900
Ist denn dein x7900 schon weg? Wäre schade keinen direkten Vergleich fahren zu können.
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Ja, ging schneller als gedacht weg (halbe Stunde oder so nach dem Einstellen des Inserates) und natürlich wollte der Käufer, dass ich das Gerät so schnell wie möglich versende.
Ich hab aber vorher noch ein paar Fotos gemacht zum Vergleichen.
Subjektiv wirkt der N5 merkbar besser, mit der neuen Lampe dürfte er merkbar heller sein. Werde ich auch heute messen.
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Sind hier die einzelnen Pixel bei Euch mit nativen 4K Beamern sichtbar?
Eventuell ein Detailfoto wie es bei Euch aussieht?
Bin gerade unterwegs, aber eigentlich sollten die gut unterscheidbar sein.
Sicher dass da nicht irgendein Scaler dazwischenhaut?
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Wegen Kritik gelöscht.
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Je nach Projektionsabstand kann auch der Zoom-Modus leicht unschärfer sein. Und einige Geräte sollte man warmlaufen lassen.
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Mahlzeit,
auch wenn ich es super Klasse finde das Mankra hier ein JVC N5 nun in Benutzung/Besitz hat, ist das hier im Thread nicht richtig aufgehoben.
Der Thread ist für Profi Beamer im ggf. Vergleich zu High End Consumer Beamer und dazu gehört der NV 5 leider nicht.
Daher es wäre definitiv besser (IMO) das in einem JVC Thread zu verschieben.
Denn ansonsten wird hier zu sehr abgedriftet.
ANDY
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Also wer bestimmt das denn hier allgemein gültig? Gibt es eine Vorgabe der Administration?
Im avs fängt der Forums Bereich "digital high-end projectors -$3000+ USD" an.
mfg
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Also wer bestimmt das denn hier allgemein gültig? Gibt es eine Vorgabe der Administration?
Im avs fängt der Forums Bereich "digital high-end projectors -$3000+ USD" an.
mfg
Es sollte auch so aus dem Kontext bisher (Verlauf Thread) zu erkennen sein.
Insofern hinkt der Vergleich zum AVS Forum.
Wie beschrieben muss hier gar keiner etwas machen, ich würde es nur Schade finden, wenn nun auch jeder andere Projektor hier diskutiert werden kann.
Dazu sind andere Threads dann (IMO) besser geeignet.
ANDY
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Also wer bestimmt das denn hier allgemein gültig? Gibt es eine Vorgabe der Administration?
Im avs fängt der Forums Bereich "digital high-end projectors -$3000+ USD" an.
Ich verstehe das Problem nicht und warum der Ton so gereizt wirkt.
Die Frage wäre doch im JVC N-Thread besser aufgehoben, oder? Hier geht es um (gebrauchte) High-End-Projektoren als Ersatz für Consumergeräte. Die Frage oben bezieht sich aber aufs Pixelgitter des N5, insofern scheint mir die Anregung von ANDY_Cres durchaus sinnvoll.
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