Gibt es einen DLP mit annehmbaren Schwarzwert und Laserdimming für unter 10K ?

Ich würde mich hier gerne aus Neugier mit einklinken.

Ich kann nicht mit Erfahrungen beitragen, da mein letzter DLP wirklich schon lang her ist…aber die Schärfe und der Punch waren damals gut…

Ich würde die Frage von Heinz noch ergänzen:
Was lässt sich noch mit MadVR rausholen?

Ich hab noch ein Optoma HD83 der hat noch einen annehmbar guten On/Of Kontrast, einen top ANSI Kontrast und ist weitaus schärfer als die JVC X… Reihe.

Die aktuellen DLP sind was die Kontraste angeht weit hinter den älteren DLP Brüdern. Einen neuen Consumer DLP würde ich mir im Moment nicht holen, da die aktuellen Chips einfach nicht gut sind.

Leider wird das DLP Segment im mittelpreisigen "Normal" Segment ziemlich vernachlässigt. Seit dem Optoma UHZ65 kam nicht mehr viel.
Im HighEnd Bereich ist Barco und Christie unterwegs, leider erst ab 30k aufwärts.

Und im UST Bereich tut sich Einiges. RGB Laser Geräte ab 3500,- mit, laut den spärlichen Testberichten, die man so findet, sehr tollem Bild.

Zitat von ***Heinz***

Hallo, Nach all den Tollen Neuerscheinungen mit Lasertechnologie (Sony XW5000, 7000, JVC NP7-NP8,NP9) Frage ich mich, ob es wohl im DLP Lager auch tolle Neuigkeiten im Bereich Laser-Beamer gibt ? Da es hier ja kaum Thematisiert wird. Das liegt sicherlich am Userschnitt hier die kein Problem haben über 5K für einen Beamer auszugeben. Also eher die Pro User hier im Forum Vertreten sind.

Wie ich darauf komme ? Ich hatte mal den Optoma UHZ 65 der durchaus Potenzial hatte. Leider machte der sehr guten Bildeindruck die Software mäßigen Unzulänglichkeiten wider zu Nichte. Z.B. nicht Funktionierende CMS, Dynamic Black auf stufe 3 machte alles unter 10% Bildhelligkeit einfach zur schwarzblende. Daher verkaufte ich Ihn wider.

Was schärfe betrifft , war es jedoch das Schärfste Bild, was ich bisher hatte, wenn man für RBE Effekt unempfindlich ist.

Was hat sich dort getan ? Wäre der Optoma UHZ 65lv / UHZ 4000 /UHZ 50 eine günstige Alternative zu den oben genannten Beamern ? Was Bieten andere Hersteller wie Benq ? Oder sind die zu mehr als ein Spielzeug nicht zu gebrauchen ?

Diskutiert doch mal mit !

Ich find die schwarzwertangaben aus der audiovision für einen ersten schus ganz praktisch. Ich meine da liegen die besten DLPs (vorausgesetzt wir sprechen nicht über kino profi geräte) so bei 0,5 lm. Die Verdächtigen kommen da ja von optoma, LG und Benq.

Zum Vergleich, der epson 9400 liegt ca bei 0,35 lm. Kurz gesagt: meiner meinung nach hat das mit dem notwendigen sw wert nicht viel zu tun für ein tolles Bild. Wenn man hier Abstriche machen kann, sieht das natürlich anders aus... Zb weil man die enorme dlp schärfe höher wichtet entsprechend dem eigenem geschmack

Was noch interessant sein könnte, Ralf Lulay hat letztens in Verbindung mit nem Sim2 DLP eine Stewart GrayMatte LW ins spiel gebracht und will in seinem demo kino auf diese kombi wechseln. sein video dazu sah ziemlich beeindruckend aus, müssten aber bestimmt mal live sehen

@kinodehemm

Auch wenn das ganz und gar off topic ist- daher können wir das gerne auslagern!

Deine Annahme ist schlicht und ergreifend nicht zutreffend in dem DLP Bereich.

Die Hersteller, welche das untere Segment bedienen, bieten doch gar keine „höherwertige“ Produkte an.

Überspitzt:

Oder meinst Du Barco bezahlt Optoma nichts besseres zu produzieren?

Außer gebrauchtem Kram gibts da mMn nix, die neuen 4k Kisten sind echt mies.

Sieht alles aus, als sei es kaputt sobald mal ne halbwegs dunkle Szene kommt. Den Optoma habe ich vor Jahren auch mal gesehen, sogar in so einer "getunten" Ausgabe (müsste den Link nochmal raussuchen, EDIT: https://www.avsforum.com/threa…65-owners-thread.3086184/ https://www.tvsproslc.com/blog…vs-upgraded-uhz65-part-i/). Das Bild war immernoch nicht toll...

Zitat von Bumblebee

Ich find die schwarzwertangaben aus der audiovision für einen ersten schus ganz praktisch

Kannst Dir auch jeder selbst ausrechnen: Lichtleistung : Kontrast = Schwarzwert

Zitat von ***Heinz***

Die Frage ist wie weit ein laser noch sinnvoll runter gedimmt werden kann ohne das die Farbbalance komplett abwandert. Ich denke hier liegt das Problem bei dlp beamer mit Laserquelle.

Es gibt noch einen frischen faden, da gehts um das laser dimming und wie es funktioniert

Und komm noch mal bei mir vorbei, dann kannst dir so ein dimming mal anschauen

Zitat von Viktor

@kinodehemm

Auch wenn das ganz und gar off topic ist- daher können wir das gerne auslagern!

Deine Annahme ist schlicht und ergreifend nicht zutreffend in dem DLP Bereich.

Die Hersteller, welche das untere Segment bedienen, bieten doch gar keine „höherwertige“ Produkte an.

Überspitzt:

Oder meinst Du Barco bezahlt Optoma nichts besseres zu produzieren?

Alles anzeigen

Also, ich bin immer noch der Meinung, dass man einen deutlichen Kompromiss in der Bildqualität in Kauf nehmen muss, um mit den dlps im Preisbereich 3 bis 5000 euro zufrieden zu sein (mal abgesehen von den Einschränkungen bei der Aufstellungsflexibilität)

Nehmen wir mal für einen Moment an, wir reden über einen abgedunkelten raum und wir kombinieren zb JVC NP5 mit einer neutral weissen leinwand und spendieren einem optoma uhz wegen dlp Hintergrund eine herkömmliche Kontrastleinwand, wie zb draper react 3.0 oder vnx black horizon; Dann meine ich, dass die optoma kombi deutlich in der gesamt bildqualität hinter der anderen zurückbleibt, vor allem bei dunklen Bildern und HDR (Schärfe mit Vorteil beim Optoma); Ich hab das live gesehen und der Eindruck war für meine Augen ziemlich deutlich.

Und die Grundfrage von Heinz war ja: Kann ein Optoma uhz 65 eine Alternative vor allem zu den LCOS Geräten sein? Und ich meine, wenn, dann müsste man auf LW Seite mit was sehr aufwändigem die Möglichkeiten Prüfen

Meine Erfahrung mit DLP Waren eigentlich nicht schlecht,

ich hatte bisher drei davon

Einen Sharp ? Noch in der Anfangszeit meines Kinos , der war günstig und lieferte ein brauchbares Bild

Einen BenQ W5000 , damit war ich zur damaligen Zeit mehr als zufrieden

Einen Marantz VP 12 der war zu seiner Zeit (bis auf die Helligkeit) der absolute Hammer.

Ein Vorteil der DLP Projektoren war das sie einfach über ihre ganze Lebensdauer immer die gleiche Bildqualität lieferten (regelmäßiger Lampentausch vorausgesetzt)

Momentan habe ich einen Sony 590 und habe damit immer im Hinterkopf das dieser nur eine Begrenzte Lebensdauer (für mich) hat.

In letzter Zeit habe ich mir einige Kurzdistanzbeamer (Laser TV) angesehen , auf DLP Basis und ich bin echt überrascht wie gut die Bildqualität geworden ist.

wenn ich könnte hätte ich gerne einen 3 Chip DLP Beamer und würde damit sorgenfrei Filme ansehen.

So, jetzt bin ich doch etwas abgeschweift

Deutsch translated from english using google translate:

Are you only asking for 4K models or also for 1080p models?

For 4K you could try some of the UST models like the Fengami T1 or... other people can contribute to the models. Some of them are RGB laser 1 chip DLP models capable of displaying 100% bt2020 colors a huge advantage over all the competition plus brightness like the Optoma UHZ65 or better and the lasers probably allow for some reason a higher native contrast than the Optoma twice. However, for some reason I believe all 24fps sources output at 60fps and use a 3:2 pulldown to the best of my knowledge.

Also the BenQ HT9060 is called in the US, not sure what it's called in Europe, maybe X1200 or something, I'm not sure, it's RGB LED, almost as bright as the Optoma, 100% DCI-P3 -Color space and apparently nicer lens than the Optoma. However, it outputs 24fps at 60fps with 3:2 pulldown, same problem. But some people don't mind. The contrast is worse than the Optoma, but the image should still be sharper and have less/no rainbow effect. The Optoma UHZ65LZ appears to have added 144Hz active 3D, the BenQ has 120Hz active 3D.

These are all 1-chip models.

For 1080p the 3 chip models to look for are various Lumis models, there are many variations, some better than others but all are at least as good as the next best HT models, the Runco LS-10 or Runco LS-12 or Runco x450h maybe it's called but I'm not sure, it was basically next year's version of the LS-12, I think just a different name. And then I think it's more like cinema models or something in between HT and cinema in terms of size, but the Christie HDK-6 or HDK-12 or something like that. And in one of my previous threads there were some recommendations from Panasonic. I can't figure out how to see the threads I've posted on my profile. or the Digital Projection Titan models (but very heavy and noisy, so less recommended), there is a Digital Projection Titan LED model that I was curious about but have never heard of anyone who has had, probably also big and loud. These range from maybe 70% as bright as the Optoma to the same brightness to even brighter.

For 1080p 1 chip RGB LED models they are less bright, probably look similar to a 1,000 lumen incandescent projector and the best ones are the Sim2 M-150 or Sim2 M-150S or Sim2 M.Reference which both latter models as far as I know are "hand picked parts" versions of the M-150 from different years, or the Sim2 Mico 50 or the Runco q750 or maybe some Vivitek or DisplayVision models using the same OEM alternator , or something else as I'm less familiar with them and they may seem to trade an advantage in brightness or lens quality for many weaknesses like noise, heat, calibration or other things. The ones that people keep coming back to are apparently the SIM2 and the Runco.

These have a native contrast of 2250:1 to 3250:1, a bt2020 color gamut of 85% or more and an ANSI contrast of around 800:1 to 1000:1. The Runco q750i and Sim2 Mico 50 both have a Dynami contrast feature that can boost dynamic contrast between 12,500:1 and 16,000:1, while the newer model, the M-150, seems to have really toned that feature down to make it work only up to maybe 5,000:1 dynamic or something like that. Some people see artifacts from the function on the Mico 50 and q750i, others don't. If you don't, that's the only major advantage these models have over the newer one, while the newer one (the M-150 line) is a bit brighter, possibly a bit higher native and ANSI contrast, possibly a slightly wider color gamut and it can use the free Sim2 live color calibration software which the older ones can't use. It also has a frame interpolation feature that interpolates 24fps movies to 48fps and 60fps to 120fps, and I'm assuming 30fps to 60fps, though I don't have not tested. It works very well when it doesn't skip frames, which I'm still investigating whether it does or not, or whether other settings or maybe even the HDMI cable affect it. I've noticed that it skips in some 4K movies downscaled to 1080p when my source is played on multiple units at the same time each time, but then I tried the same movie, but the 1080p version with a different and shorter HDMI cable, a new unit with different settings, and it didn't jump at all in these or other places, it seemed to last the whole movie. So if there's a way not to skip frames, FI might be the best I've come across and a huge plus.

Note that some of the Lumis models also have frame interpolation and, as far as I can tell, have the exact same algorithm as the M-150 line. However, some Lumis models do not. Likewise, some Lumis models have dynamic contrast that can reach up to 20,000:1, and some Lumis models don't have this feature at all. Some also have a static aperture that you can close to improve contrast at the expense of brightness, others don't.

The M-150 series also has "Sim2 Proprietary 2.5 Flash 120Hz Active 3D" which the other models don't have. Some Lumis models have 144Hz "Triple Flash" Active 3D, others have no Active 3D at all.

The native contrast of the 4K single chip long throw projector is estimated at 900:1 to 1500:1 (BenQ HT9060 and Optoma) and I'm not sure about ANSI but I would estimate between 450:1 and 700 :1 appreciate.

The 4K single chip UST models with RGB laser, some apparently can achieve 3000:1 native contrast and I have no idea about ANSI but I would guess somewhere between 500:1 and 850:1.

The 3-chip DLP 1080p models range from say 4,000:1 to 7,500:1 native contrast, and the ANSI contrast should be between 800:1 and 1,050:1 I'd guess or guess/guess.

I already mentioned the numbers for the 1-chip 1080p models. About 500 to 600 lumens, but they'll look like say 1,000 incandescent lumens because LED lighting has higher CLO and looks brighter to our eyes for other reasons, and the contrast and ANSI that I mentioned earlier.

That's basically the entire state of the country, unless I've left something out. For many scenes the best 1080p DLP options might be better than anything else in your price range but only if you use madvr or lumagen or maybe the cheaper option of the Panasonic Blu-ray player would work but maybe not me not sure but for really dark scenes none of this will compete with a JVC I don't think. I hope this helps, I wasn't aware of what I was getting myself into when I set out to summarize the entire state of the country for you haha.

English original in case google translate confused some words:

Are you asking about 4K only or also 1080p models?

For 4K, you could try some of the UST models like the Fengami T1 or... other people can chime in on the models. Some of them are RGB laser 1 chip DLP models that can do 100% bt2020 colors, a major advantage over all the competition, plus brightness like the Optoma UHZ65 or better, and the lasers for whatever reason allow higher native contrast than the Optoma, probably double. However for some reason so far I believe all of them output 24fps sources at 60fps, using 3:2 pulldown as far as I know.

Likewise, the BenQ HT9060 in the US it's called, not sure what it is caleld in Europe maybe X1200 or something Im not sure, is RGB LED, almost as bright as the Optoma, 100% DCI-P3 color gamut, and apparently a nicer lens than the Optoma. However, it outputs 24fps at 60fps using 3:2 pulldown, same problem. Some people aren't bothered by it though. The contrast is worse than the Optoma but the picture should be even sharper and have less/no rainbow effect. The Optoma UHZ65LZ apparently added 144hz active 3D, the BenQ has 120hz active 3D.

Those are all 1 chip models.

For 1080p, the 3 chip models to look for are various Lumis models, there are many variations some better than others but all are at least as good as the next best HT models, the Runco LS-10 or Runco LS-12 or Runco x450h maybe it's called but I'm not sure, it was basically the next year's version of the LS-12 I think just a different name. And then I think they are more cinema models or something in between HT and cinema as far as size, but the Christie HDK-6 or HDK-12 or something like that. And in one of my earlier threads there were some Panasonic's recommended. I cant figure out on my profile how to see the threads I posted. or the Digital Projection Titan models (but very heavy and noisy so less recommended), there is a Digital Projection Titan LED model I have been curious about but never heard of anyone who had it, probably also big and loud. These range from maybe 70% as bright as the Optoma to the same brightness to brighter.

Edit: Also ProjectionDesign F82 and F85, I left them out before by mistake.

For 1080p 1 chip RGB LED models, they're less bright, will probably appear similar to a 1,000 lumen bulb projector, and the best ones are the Sim2 M-150 or Sim2 M-150S or Sim2 M.Reference, the latter two models are different years' "hand picked parts" versions of the M-150 as far as I understand, or the Sim2 Mico 50, or the Runco q750, or maybe some Vivitek or DisplayVision models that use the same OEM light engine or something but I am less familiar with those and they seem to trade maybe one advantage in brightness or lens quality for a lot of weaknesses like noise, heat, calibration or other things. The ones that people keep going back to are the SIM2's and the Runco's it seems.

These will have from 2,250:1 to 3,250:1 native contrast, 85% or higher bt2020 color gamut, and around 800:1 to 1,000:1 ANSI contrast. The Runco q750i and Sim2 Mico 50 both have a dynami contrast function that can bump that up to, guessing, between 12,500:1 to 16,000:1 dynamic contrast, while the newer model, the M-150, apparently really softened that feature so that it will only go to maybe 5,000:1 dynamic or something like that. Some people see artifacts from the feature on the Mico 50 and q750i, some people don't. If you don't, it's the one big advantage to those models over the newer one, while the newer one (the M-150 line) is slightly brighter, possibly slightly higher native and ANSI contrast, possibly slighter wider color gamut, and it can use the free Sim2 live color calibration software which the older ones can't use. It also has frame interpolation feature that interpolates 24fps movies to 48fps in cadence, and 60fps to 120fps, and I assume 30fps to 60fps although I haven't tested. It works very well when it doesn't skip frames which I am still investigating if it does or doesn't or if other settings or maybe even the HDMI cable is affecting it. I was noticing it skip in some 4K movies downscaled to 1080p by my source playing, at the same time every time, on multiple unit samples, but then I tried the same movie but the 1080p version, with a different and shorter HDMI cable, on a new unit with different settings, and it wasn't skipping at all in those places or any other places it seemed the whole movie. So if there is some way to make it not skip frames then the FI might be the best I've encountered and a big advantage.

Note some of the Lumis models also have frame interpolation, and it as far as I can tell the exact same algorithm as on the M-150 line. But some Lumis models do not. Likewise some Lumis models have dynamic contrast that can go to around 20,000:1, and some Lumis models dont have that feature at all. Some also have a static iris you can close to improve the contrast more at the expense of brightness, some don' t.

The 4K single chip long throw projectors native contrast is I guess around 900:1 to 1,500:1 (BenQ HT9060 and Optoma), and I'm not sure about the ANSI but I would guess between 450:1 and 700:1.

The 4K single chip UST models with RGB laser, some can apparently do 3,000:1 native contrast, and I have no idea about the ANSI but I would guess between 500:1 and 850:1.

The 3-chip DLP 1080p models range from say 4,000:1 to 7,500:1 native contrast, and the ANSI contrast should range between 800:1 and 1,050:1 I would guesstimate or guess / estimate.

The M-150 lineup also has "Sim2 proprietary 2.5 flash 120hz active 3D" which the other models dont. Some Lumis models have 144hz "Triple flash" active 3D, some don't have active 3D at all.

The 4K single chip long throw projectors native contrast is I guess around 900:1 to 1,500:1 (BenQ HT9060 and Optoma), and I'm not sure about the ANSI but I would guess between 450:1 and 700:1.

The 4K single chip UST models with RGB laser, some can apparently do 3,000:1 native contrast, and I have no idea about the ANSI but I would guess between 500:1 and 850:1.

The 3-chip DLP 1080p models range from say 4,000:1 to 7,500:1 native contrast, and the ANSI contrast should range between 800:1 and 1,050:1 I would guesstimate or guess / estimate.

The 1-chip 1080p models I already mentioned the numbers. Around 500 to 600 lumens but they will look like say 1,000 bulb lumens because LED lighting has higher color brightness and other reasons it looks brighter to our eyes, and the contrast and ANSI I already mentioned.

That's basically the full lay of the land unless I left out something. For a lot of scenes, the best 1080p DLP options might be better than anything else in your price range, but only if you use madvr or Lumagen or maybe the cheaper option of the Panasonic blu ray player would work but maybe not I'm not sure, but for really dark scenes none of it is going to compete with a JVC I dont think. I hope this helps, I didn't realize what I was getting myself into when I set out to summarize the full lay of the land for you, haha.

Edit: Here were the Panasonic models recommended to me also, FYI. RE: Können Sie mir bitte einen 1080p oder höher 3 Chip DLP mit ordentlichem Kontrast empfehlen??

Zitat von ProjectionArt

The Runco q750i and Sim2 Mico 50 both have a Dynami contrast feature that can boost dynamic contrast

Diese alten RGB LED Projektoren mit dem 0.95 DC4 Chip machen wirklich ein tolles Bild - auch wenn es schwer ist dieses mit einer Kamera einzufangen anbei ein paar Eindrücke vom Bild eines Runco Q750i in meinem teiloptimierten Wohnraum (Farben, Detailschärfe in natura deutlich eindrucksvoller).

Dynamischer Kontrast ist hier auf "Low" - HDR Beispiele mit MADVR über HTPC

DSC04544.jpgDSC04545.jpgDSC04542.jpgDSC04535.jpgDSC04528.jpg

Diese Projektoren findet man gebraucht bereits unter 1.000 Euro (Neupreis war ca. 20.000 Euro damals in 2009)

Beispiel von vor einigen Wochen

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